Feb 14, 2008

Hydrogen Bomb Designer Criticizes RRW Program

By Jon Fox
Global Security Newswire

WASHINGTON — A frequent adviser to the U.S. government on nuclear and security issues argued yesterday that the current administration’s push for a next-generation nuclear warhead is unnecessary (see GSN, Feb. 5).

“The United States has the most flexible, the most usable, the most accurate nuclear weapons in the world,” said Richard Garwin, a physicist involved with the original design for the hydrogen bomb and longtime arms control advocate. The Pentagon would be better off sticking with the Cold War-era weapons they have now, he said, both in terms of reliability of the warheads and in terms of cost.

The Bush administration has aggressively pursued, in the face of congressional opposition, a new nuclear warhead design that Energy Department officials have argued would be more secure, more reliable, cheaper, would allow for a reduction in the U.S. stockpile of warheads and would help maintain a retinue of trained weapons designers at U.S. laboratories (see GSN, Dec. 19, 2007).

The design, dubbed the Reliable Replacement Warhead, received none of the nearly $90 million in requested funding this year. For the coming fiscal year, the president’s budget requests $10 million for the program.

Garwin, at one time a member of the JASON panel that advises the executive branch on nuclear weapon-related issues, spoke yesterday as one of the authors of a report suggesting 10 alterations in nuclear weapons policy to be made in the next presidential administration.

The suggestions are part of a slightly modified report from the Federation of American Scientists, the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Union of Concerned Scientists originally issued in 2001 in advance of a nuclear posture review from the Bush administration.

“We can be much more confident with the legacy warheads, that they will remain closer to the test pedigree than would the RRW that has never been tested,” Garwin said. The report suggests halting all U.S. programs for developing and deploying new nuclear weapons.

Officials have argued that the existing arsenal will slowly deteriorate despite efforts to replace minor parts as part of the Energy Department’s Stockpile Stewardship program. At some point, it may be necessary to return to explosive testing to affirm the stockpile’s effectiveness, they have argued (see GSN, Nov. 15, 2007).

To avoid the prospect of renewed nuclear testing, the Bush administration has advocated developing the new warhead to replace the older weapons. Officials have assured Congress that the new warhead would not require nuclear testing. For many in Congress a return to nuclear testing as part of the program is considered unacceptable.

Administration officials have also said the RRW would save money in the long run by reducing the maintenance costs of the current arsenal. Garwin said he has yet to see evidence that this is the case.

“Nobody has ever come up with a cost for the RRW program that has any possible benefit from the point of view of cost in part because the RRW would not be here to replace the legacy weapons for a very, very long time,” he said.

He said it could take 40 years or more before the RRW design would replace all the weapons the United States now deploys, a replacement rate of about 50 warheads a year.

“And during all that time you would have to have the ability to take care of the W-76, W-87, the W-88 and all those weapons,” Garwin said.

What had once been the primary argument for replacing the weapons, the effect of aging on plutonium, is no longer relevant in light of recent findings about the way the metal’s changes over time, he said. The Energy Department has estimated that nuclear weapons’ plutonium cores should perform as designed for 85 years, and a separate JASON’s study assessed a 100-year lifespan (see GSN, Nov. 30, 2006).

“Which is a long, long time from now, another 56 years [from now] before the weapons may decay,” Garwin said. Almost all of the problems regarding aging and the current U.S. nuclear warhead designs relate to the non-nuclear parts “that can be replaced whenever it is economically desirable.”

In terms of keeping U.S. weapons designers interested and trained, Garwin suggested having the two design laboratories compete to develop new designs but simply never make them. “If we had an RRW competition every five years or so that would keep the designers up to snuff,” he said.

The other suggestions in the report include:

— Declare the sole purpose of U.S. nuclear weapons to be for deterrence and if necessary respond to the use of nuclear weapons by another nation;

— Reject rapid nuclear-armed missile launch options (see GSN, April 5, 2005);

— Eliminate current U.S. nuclear targeting plans with a plan tailored to individual situations;

— Unilaterally reduce U.S. deployed and reserve warheads to no more than 1,000;

— Retire all U.S. tactical, or battlefield, nuclear weapons (see GSN, Feb. 9, 2005);

— Announce a U.S. commitment to further reduce warheads on a bilateral, negotiated basis;

— Commit to no new nuclear testing and work with the Senate to ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (see GSN, Sept. 18, 2007);

— Halt further deployment of a ground-based missile defense systems and drop plans for any spaced-based defenses (see GSN, Oct. 12, 2007); and

— Reaffirm a U.S. commitment to complete nuclear disarmament.

64 comments:

  1. "In terms of keeping U.S. weapons designers interested and trained, Garwin suggested having the two design laboratories compete to develop new designs but simply never make them. “If we had an RRW competition every five years or so that would keep the designers up to snuff,” he said."

    What exactly, would they compete for? Pride? $? A gold medal?

    ReplyDelete
  2. A better understanding of Nuclear Weapons for the 21st Century, and their rationale are:

    1) Towards a Grand Strategy for an Uncertain World, Renewing Transatlantic Partnership, by General (ret.) Klaus Naumann, General (ret.) John Shalikashvili, Field Marshal The Lord Inge, Admiral (ret.) Jacques Lanxade, General (ret.) Henk van den Breemen, 152p., 2007.

    2) Strategic Weapons in the 21st Century, January 31, 2008, Washington, DC.

    3) Joint Publication 3-12, Doctrine for Joint Nuclear Operations, Final Coordination (2), 15 March 2005.

    4) Nuclear Posture Review, 2001/2002.

    5) A White Paper: Pursuing a New Nuclear Weapons Policy for the 21st Century, by Dr. C. Paul Robinson, March 22, 2001.

    6) Nuclear Weapons in the Twenty-First Century, by Dr. Stephen M. Younger, June 27, 2000.

    The ill-thought idea of "Reaffirm a U.S. commitment to complete nuclear disarmament."[Garwin], and "Getting to Zero" [Nuclear weapons], from the "Reykjavik Revisited: Steps Toward A World Free Of Nuclear Weapons," October 24-25, 2007, Hoover Institution, Stanford University, that is a highly dangerous and naive path, that eventually could lead to the consequence that U.S. lose its status as a superpower, that clearly must be stopped.

    ReplyDelete
  3. ““Nobody has ever come up with a cost for the RRW program that has any possible benefit from the point of view of cost in part because the RRW would not be here to replace the legacy weapons for a very, very long time,” he said.

    He said it could take 40 years or more before the RRW design would replace all the weapons the United States now deploys, a replacement rate of about 50 warheads a year.

    “And during all that time you would have to have the ability to take care of the W-76, W-87, the W-88 and all those weapons,” Garwin said.”

    To me the above statement is a flawed argument:

    From a manufacturing standpoint this means you/them/someone failed to properly size the production capacity of this NATIONAL CABABILITY.

    Sizing the capacity of pit production @ 50 pits/year without building in the capacity to accommodate an unexpected need to perform a complete replacement of the pit on a major weapon program is an outright mistake or a deliberate attempt to sabotage this NATIONAL CAPABILITY.

    A quick review of the past 5-6 decades of the nuclear weapons manufacturing business will clearly show that the unexpected does occur more often than not. Major retrofits involving 100’s/1000’s of weapons to correct various problems is a normal part of production planning and sizing of a production capacity/capability.

    The cost to build in contingency for sprint/surge or unexpected production capacity needs is far less than trying to tack it on after a problem develops.
    Hell, our Congress spills more in a year than it would take to build a decent pit production facility. Eliminating some of the “Pork” in one year is more than what’s required to do the job.

    20 years to build 1000 new pits is just plain dumb.

    Do we need the RRW—It seems to me that some are arguing that the existing Stockpile is reliable and “…flexible, the most usable, the most accurate nuclear weapons in the world,” but others are saying that some of our existing weapons are not as “Secure” as they need to be.

    Our limited pit production capacity does not allow us to take advantage of technology that would make some weapons (such as those with HMX based HE Systems) much more secure.

    To me it makes no sense to leave weapons with HMX based HE Systems in the stockpile for the next 10-20 years. These weapons present much tougher safety/security/protection issues than those with IHE and other safety features.

    As long as we have nuclear weapons as part of our national defense, we need a National Capability to maintain the stockpile to the highest standards.

    And no, our Pit Production Facility does not belong a LANL.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I am a bit confused. why do we need "super power status" again? We get a medal for that? I am assuming a "super power "is one that has the ability to annihilate its enemies using superior nuclear weaponry. The pitiful state of our economy has nothing to do with super power status I gather? This country is on the verge of being buried by its enemies and our superior nuclear arsenal has no role to play at all.

    ReplyDelete
  5. This country is on the verge of being buried by its enemies and our superior nuclear arsenal has no role to play at all.
    =======

    Banning nuclear weapons merely makes the
    World safe for large scale conventional
    conflict ala' WWI and WWII.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Garwin is a strong advocate of the test ban treaty. Nothing matters to him so much as reduction and elimination of nuclear weapons. He thinks that our building an RRW sends the wrong signal to others. He thinks that you can't design an RRW without testing it, and he doesn't want any testing, ergo that rules out the RRW.

    The safety, security, and reliability of the stockpile evidently mean nothing to him, or at least he is ignorant of the issues. Garwin does not understand our ability to design weapons by simulation. He has no appreciation of the uncertainties. I think he would be most pleased if we did nothing and let our stockpile and capabilities disappear.

    Some would say that is a good thing. I say that Garwin is not a critical thinker, and his views are dangerous to our national security.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Garwin does not understand our ability to design weapons by simulation. He has no appreciation of the uncertainties.
    =================

    Garwin makes the same mistake that many
    do by assuming that the weapons in the
    stockpile today are identical to what
    was tested in every way.

    Unfortunately time takes its toll on
    nuclear weapons as it does on all
    man-made items.

    Ask yourself whether you would rather
    fly on an old Boeing 727 [ which once
    flew ] but has been sitting in the
    airliner boneyard outside Tucson, AZ
    for the last 20 years....OR

    Would you rather be on the maiden flight
    of a Boeing 787 Dreamliner that has only
    flown in computer simulation?

    For me; that old 727 is NOT the same
    machine that was once soaring the skies;
    and I have more faith in Boeing's
    ability to design a new aircraft by
    computer.

    The only intelligent choice is the 787.

    ReplyDelete
  8. The only intelligent choice is the 787.

    The problem with your analogy is the old 727 sitting in the boneyard was not certified to fly until structural tests were done on non flying prototype aircraft. There was and is no routine where by certified aircraft are removed from service and tested to failure to re certify the fleet as is being suggested with respect to nuclear weapons (take a nuke out of the stockpile and detonate it).

    The 727 in the boneyard may be perfectly safe (from a structural standpoint) and I wouldn't hesitate to fly in it provided I could see how many flight hours were on the airframe.

    I guess you could say the same about the nuclear arsenal.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Why build 787s if we have 727s we aren't using and no intention of using the 787s?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Should we use up the 727's first?

    ReplyDelete
  11. All this rah rah talk about 787s would be more convincing if it were coming from folks who could build a 727 to original specifications. Since there is no hurry, why not work on that first?

    ReplyDelete
  12. The 727 in the boneyard may be perfectly safe (from a structural standpoint) and I wouldn't hesitate to fly in it provided I could see how many flight hours were on the airframe.
    =============

    You have structural mechanic's myopia;
    you can't see beyond the structure.

    There are MANY MANY other functions that
    the old 727 has to perform that a test
    of the airframe structure won't find.

    Where do I begin? What shape are the
    engines in? What's the state of the
    lubricating oil? What about the rubber
    seals on the bearings?

    What about the hydraulic systems; the
    hydraulic fluid, the seals in the
    hydraulic system.....

    There's LOTS and LOTS of things that
    can go wrong with a 727 just due to the
    fact that it is sitting there.

    The fact that the 727 was once certified
    either by prototype tests, or by flights
    of the actual aircraft are becoming more
    and more MEANINGLESS as time passes.

    That's because the passage of time is
    turning the old 727 into a machine that
    is different than from what was tested.

    As time progresses, and the components
    of the 727 decay; those early tests on
    virgin 727s become more and more
    MEANINGLESS.

    That's what is happening to nuclear
    weapons as they age; and become more
    and more different from the object that
    underwent the test.

    ReplyDelete
  13. All this rah rah talk about 787s would be more convincing if it were coming from folks who could build a 727 to original specifications. Since there is no hurry, why not work on that first?
    ===================

    Do you ever replace your car? Why is
    that? Why aren't you still driving the
    first car you purchased?

    Anyone knows that sooner or later the
    cost to maintain the car escalates. The
    car is becoming less and less reliable;
    and costs more and more to maintain.

    So you replace it. Congresswoman Ellen
    Tauscher (Democrat), chairperson of
    the Strategic Forces Subcommittee of the
    House Armed Services Committee also
    uses the car analogy in her article
    in the journal Nonproliferation
    Review
    :

    http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol14/143/
    143tauscher.pdf

    ReplyDelete
  14. Why build 787s if we have 727s we aren't using and no intention of using the 787s?
    ===========

    Who says we aren't using our "727"s?

    Are we using our stockpile of present
    nuclear weapons? Of course we are.

    Those weapons aren't exploding; but they
    are, for example; going to sea with
    US Navy Trident submarines.

    Do you advocate sending the Tridents
    to sea with weapons that don't work?

    Do you advocate sending the Tridents
    to sea with empty missile tubes?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Per 2/16/08 4:46 PM..."Congresswoman Ellen
    Tauscher (Democrat), chairperson of
    the Strategic Forces Subcommittee of the
    House Armed Services Committee also
    uses the car analogy in her article
    in the journal Nonproliferation
    Review :

    “The RRW is a replacement weapon, not a new weapon, as borne out by this analogy:
    Our stockpile can be compared to a vintage automobile in dire need of repair. There is no need to get rid of the car because it is valuable, has served you well over the years, and can remain of benefit to you in the future. But while the car needs to be repaired, the maintenance of the car’s antiquated components, including its engine, has become very difficult and expensive.

    Being a responsible car owner, you take your car to the shop. The mechanics replace the engine, but with one that is no more powerful or capable, yet more likely to start on the first try and less likely to stall while driving. They also add a new state of the art security system that prevents people from breaking into the car and either stealing the car itself or anything important you keep in the car. Finally, they work on the exhaust system to ensure that the fumes from the car have less of a negative impact on the environment.

    After all of this work, when you drive the car out of the garage, do you have a new car? Of course not. But you do have a better operating, more protected, environmentally friendly, energy efficient car. This is what RRW could do for our nuclear stockpile. It should upgrade it and make it safer, but it should neither expand it nor violate the tenets of nonproliferation.”

    ReplyDelete
  16. From Secret no more":

    "You're willing to build something you've never built before, using codes that have never been used before in this context, materials that have never been used before, instead of rebuilding something that has been tested and that has been built before," he said. "Don't put it in the stockpile without testing it."

    Harold Agnew

    ReplyDelete
  17. "You're willing to build something you've never built before, using codes that have never been used before in this context, materials that have never been used before, instead of rebuilding something that has been tested and that has been built before," he said. "Don't put it in the stockpile without testing it."
    =================

    But this is NOT a fair characterization
    of the RRW nor the codes used to design
    it.

    The new codes have been tested against
    old experiments just as much as the
    old codes. The new codes have been
    certified as well as the old codes; if
    not better.

    As for materials; many are NOT available;
    they aren't made anymore, or would be
    environmentally damaging to produce.
    Rebuilding EXACTLY to old specs may NOT
    be a viable option.

    The prestigious JASONS review panel
    confirmed the technical approach as
    being valid:

    http://www.nnsa.doe.gov/docs/
    newsreleases/2007/
    PR_2007-10-01_NA-07-43.htm

    "The JASON Defense Advisory Group, an
    independent scientific panel of
    academics with expertise in nuclear
    physics and the nuclear weapons program,
    conducted the technical review of the
    RRW program. The report supported NNSA’s
    scientific approach, including
    activities to combine together
    information from the nation’s past
    underground tests, today’s current
    physics understanding, and new
    non-nuclear experiments in order to
    certify RRW without underground
    testing."

    ReplyDelete
  18. Harold Agnew was director 29 years ago. How close is he to the current state of stockpile stewardship and code validation? I have great respect for Agnew, but I don't think his opinion on this subject is worth more than that of the RRW design team.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Do you advocate sending the Tridents to sea with weapons that don't work?

    Has any weapon removed from the stockpile ever failed when tested????Maybe 15 megatons instead of 20???
    Say no weapon worked at all. Does the enemy know that? Do they assume that?

    Take a page from Saddam's book. Doesn't matter if you got em or not, its perception that makes all the difference.

    Besides, who is going to push the button? Are we to assume we are going to annihilate an entire country if some terrorist from that country detonates a nuke in this country? Or is there some threshold below the detonation of a nuke that would warrant a nuclear response? You really think so? If so then what was Bush waiting for? What sort of provocation do we need? Under what circumstances would we use a nuke?

    Didn't use them in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq. Instead we squandered vast natural resources and human lives. So under what circumstances would we ever have to worry about the use of these so called "unsafe and unreliable" weapons anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  20. So under what circumstances would we ever have to worry about the use of these so called "unsafe and unreliable" weapons anyway?
    ===========

    Korea, Vietnam... didn't warrant the use
    of nukes. For the decades of the Cold War
    and continuing to the present - the USA
    has had nukes "pointed" at it. If any of
    THOSE weapons were unleashed - a nuclear
    response by the USA would be warranted.

    "Unsafe" and "unreliable" are two
    different concepts. An "unreliable"
    nuke is one that won't detonate when
    you want it to - like in a retaliation.

    An "unsafe" nuke is one that detonates
    when you DON'T want it to - like when
    in September 1980 in Arkansas, one of
    our ICBM missiles blew up in its silo.
    The warhead didn't detonate because it
    was safe. If it were an "unsafe" warhead
    then we would be missing a big chunk
    of Arkansas.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Say no weapon worked at all. Does the enemy know that? Do they assume that?
    ==========

    So would you face off with an armed
    adversary with your gun loaded with
    only blanks???

    After all your adversary doesn't know
    that they are only blanks.

    Would you be willing to send police out
    on the beat armed with guns with only
    blanks? After all, the bad guys won't
    know that the police only have blanks
    if you keep that a secret.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Take a page from Saddam's book. Doesn't matter if you got em or not, its perception that makes all the difference.
    ------------------------------------

    Are you serious?? From Saddam's
    perspective of desiring to keep his
    regime in power; that gambit was an
    unmitigated failure when someone called
    his bluff.

    Saddam's regime was "rolled up" in
    short order.

    Is that the fate you envision for the
    USA should some nation ever challenge
    the USA with nukes? The USA should just
    say "Game Over" and collapse?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Korea, Vietnam... didn't warrant the use
    of nukes.

    no kiddin? do you know that nukes were considered to take out particularly difficult targets in Vietnam?You need to brush up on your history.

    ReplyDelete
  24. s that the fate you envision for the
    USA should some nation ever challenge
    the USA with nukes?

    Who is it that is going to challenge us with nukes again? I forgot.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Would you be willing to send police out
    on the beat armed with guns with only
    blanks?

    Interesting analogy. stupid also.I had no idea cops fired nuclear rounds.

    ReplyDelete
  26. If it were an "unsafe" warhead
    then we would be missing a big chunk
    of Arkansas.

    So you would agree we don't need RRW, right? Glad you see it my way. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I love this blog. It's like shooting fish in a barrel?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Who is it that is going to challenge us with nukes again? I forgot.
    ======================

    As long as we have the nukes; I don't
    believe anyone would be foolish enough
    to challenge the USA.

    However, we'd like to keep it that way.

    THAT's why we keep the nukes!!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Interesting analogy. stupid also.I had no idea cops fired nuclear rounds.
    =============

    It's an ANALOGY!!! In an analogy; the
    analogous components don't have to be
    equivalent.

    The ANALOG of the nuclear weapon for a
    Nation, is a bullet for a police officer.

    The ANALOGY doesn't require that the
    bullet be nuclear - which is why it
    isn't stupid at all.

    Now some people who have difficulty
    interpreting analogies; well, that's
    another question.

    ReplyDelete
  30. If it were an "unsafe" warhead
    then we would be missing a big chunk
    of Arkansas.

    So you would agree we don't need RRW, right? Glad you see it my way. Thank you
    ==========

    By what "fuzzy logic" did you make THAT
    conclusion?

    Look at my analogy with the 727. The 727
    that was once safe back in the 1960s,
    may no longer be flightworthy after
    years of time and the decay of its
    components.

    If I said that the 727 was safe to fly
    back in 1965; would you then conclude
    that we don't need the 787 Dreamliner
    today, or in the future?

    Because that's the "logic" [ using the
    term loosely ] that you just displayed
    above.

    I believe we DO need the RRW!!

    ReplyDelete
  31. By what "fuzzy logic" did you make THAT
    conclusion?

    Sorry dude. That's your "fuzzy logic" not mine. You're the one hung up on the 727 analogy, not me.Your analogy doesn't work, it's that simple.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Now some people who have difficulty
    interpreting analogies; well, that's
    another question.

    Ever witness a nuclear detonation first hand? If you had you wouldn't be making such frivolous analogies. I suppose it's a feel good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I believe we DO need the RRW!!

    Your nuts. sorry, the truth hurts.

    ReplyDelete
  34. THAT's why we keep the nukes!!

    Ohhhhh...I see. Deep..very deep.Thank you for your reasoned insight.

    ReplyDelete
  35. As time progresses, and the components
    of the 727 decay; those early tests on
    virgin 727s become more and more
    MEANINGLESS.


    Have you any idea how old the aircraft are that would deliver your nuke? Let me know when you have the answer.

    ReplyDelete
  36. 7:56 PM said "Ever witness a nuclear detonation first hand? If you had you wouldn't be making such frivolous analogies. I suppose it's a feel good thing."

    Have you?? Probably not since those lucky individuals are now nearly or over seventy and unlikely to be posting on this blog. So you have no standing, either. However, if you read the histories, many of those "witnesses" felt comforted that the US could resist any enemy. Except, of course, that from within.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Sorry dude. That's your "fuzzy logic" not mine. You're the one hung up on the 727 analogy, not me.Your analogy doesn't work, it's that simple.
    ===========

    The only thing that simple is your thinking.

    The 727 analogy DOES work. Every hear
    of the term "service life"? Practically
    any mechanism built by man has a service
    life. Your car has a service life, a
    727 has a service life, and nuclear
    weapons have a service life - a service
    life that is finite.

    We know from recent studies that the
    nuclear material in the weapons may
    last for decades. However, there are
    OTHER components that won't last that
    long. See the NNSA fact sheet:

    http://www.nnsa.doe.gov/docs/factsheets/
    2006/NA-06-FS-08A.pdf

    Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher used an
    analogy between a car and nuclear
    weapons as shown earlier in this thread.

    I made an analogy to a Boeing 727.

    Cars, airliners, and nuclear weapons
    all have limited service lives.

    It's hard to believe you lack the
    mental capacity to understand that.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Have you any idea how old the aircraft are that would deliver your nuke? Let me know when you have the answer.
    ===================

    Some of those aircraft are 50+ years old.
    However, just because the bomber is still
    serviceable at 50+ years doesn't say
    ANYTHING about the warheads!!

    That's about as intelligent as saying
    unrefridgerated milk has a shelf-life
    as long as unrefridgerated bottled water.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Ever witness a nuclear detonation first hand? If you had you wouldn't be making such frivolous analogies.
    ================

    Why would one need to actually witness
    a nuclear detonation in order to have
    an understanding of what it is?

    Scientists understand lots of things that
    they have never seen. Nobody has actually
    seen electrons "orbiting" atoms; but we
    do an excellent job of making those
    invisible electrons do our bidding;
    like in the computers in use here.

    The analogies are to help those with
    limited understanding and intellect
    get a grasp on the subject at hand.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Sorry dude. That's your "fuzzy logic" not mine. You're the one hung up on the 727 analogy, not me.Your analogy doesn't work, it's that simple.
    ========

    If you're so smart - where does the
    analogy fail? EXPLAIN [ if you can ]
    WHY it doesn't work.

    Do you think that a Boeing 727 once
    certified by Boeing as safe will remain
    safe and flightworthy indefinitely if
    one doesn't continually replace and
    refurbish parts of the aircraft?

    Why do you think nuclear weapons
    would be any different? You do know
    that there are parts that we don't have
    the ability to refurbish or replace?

    So why do you think the rules that apply
    to cars, airliners, and practically
    any man-made device; don't apply to
    nuclear weapons?

    ReplyDelete
  41. 10:07 pm: "Why do you think nuclear weapons would be any different? You do know that there are parts that we don't have the ability to refurbish or replace?"

    Uh...yes. What part of the nuclear posture review didn't you get?

    ReplyDelete
  42. To eliminate uncertainty,
    Must test

    ReplyDelete
  43. 10:07 pm: "Why do you think nuclear weapons would be any different? You do know that there are parts that we don't have the ability to refurbish or replace?"

    Uh...yes. What part of the nuclear posture review didn't you get?
    =====================

    Well then it's evident that you NEVER
    READ the Nuclear Posture Review.

    Here's an excerpt that states precisely
    what I stated above that we don't have
    the capability to refurbish all the
    components of a weapon:

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/
    library/policy/dod/npr.htm

    "Uranium Operations: At least seven to
    eight years of effort will be required
    to restore the capability to produce a
    complete nuclear weapon secondary at
    the Y-12 Plant in Tennessee. Qualified
    processes for some material and
    manufacturing steps are not currently in
    place. Plans are underway to expand the
    capacity and capability of the Y-12
    Plant to meet the planned workload for
    replacing warhead secondaries, and other
    uranium components."

    "Plutonium Operations: One glaring
    shortfall is the inability to fabricate
    and certify weapon primaries, or
    so-called "pits". Work is underway to
    establish an interim capability at Los
    Alamos National Laboratory late in this
    decade to meet current demand created by
    destructive surveillance testing on the
    W88 warhead. For the long term a new
    modern production facility will be
    needed to deal with the large-scale
    replacement of components and new
    production."

    Now you were saying something about
    how the Nuclear Posture Review didn't
    support my statement above?

    I think we know who is IGNORANT on
    nuclear weapons issues here.

    ReplyDelete
  44. 10:07 pm: "Why do you think nuclear weapons would be any different? You do know that there are parts that we don't have the ability to refurbish or replace?"

    Uh...yes. What part of the nuclear posture review didn't you get?

    ReplyDelete
  45. PATB: This seems relevant:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/16/AR2008021602370.html

    ReplyDelete
  46. 2/18/08 11:06 AM:
    "To eliminate uncertainty,
    Must test"

    That is a simplistic statement. You can never eliminate uncertainty. You can only reduce it. A nuclear test gives you one data point, albeit a good one. You would need a program of testing of different weapon systems periodically in time. If that is impossible politically, then you need to do something else.

    ReplyDelete
  47. How about a Mobile Pit Facility? We can make RRWs in a 727.

    ReplyDelete
  48. PATB: This seems relevant:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20
    =============

    Your URL got clipped. Is this the WP
    article you had in mind:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/
    content/article/2007/04/21/
    AR2007042101000.html

    "Congress Skeptical of Warhead Plan
    Lawmakers and Experts Question Necessity, Implications of a
    New Nuclear Weapon"

    Of course Congress should be skeptical,
    and the NNSA and DOE do need to
    justify the RRW.

    However, I believe if one looks at the
    problem honestly without predetermined
    mindsets; one will certainly come to
    the realization that RRW offers the USA
    the best plan forward for the Nation's
    nuclear deterrent.

    Professor Hugh Gusterson of MIT has
    a good take on this writing in the
    Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist:

    http://www.thebulletin.org/columns/
    hugh-gusterson/20070326.html

    "These are good arguments, but still
    something important has been missing
    from the debate. It is my own feeling
    that, if given the choice of waving a
    wand and changing all the current W76s
    into RRWs, one would do so because the
    RRW is a safer warhead whose design is
    less likely to trigger neurotic doubts
    about reliability among the men and
    women in white lab coats who can bring
    the test ban regime crashing down if
    they tell the president that they have
    lost confidence in the reliability of
    the stockpile."

    Professor Gusterson makes a very good
    point about the scientists at LANL and
    LLNL bringing the 15 year old test ban
    regime "crashing down".

    One of the safeguards instituted during
    the Clinton Administration was that
    testing would resume if the Lab
    Directors and the Secretaries of Energy
    and Defense felt that a weapon system
    could not be certified.

    Do you want to maintain the current
    test ban or not??? Your choice!!!

    ReplyDelete
  49. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/
    content/article/2007/04/21/
    AR2007042101000.html
    =====================

    Nunn and Feinstein are afraid the RRW
    will trigger a new arms race. With who?

    Russia?

    I'm sorry - but that ship has
    already sailed:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
    main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/19/
    wputin119.xml

    "Putin touts new nuclear weapons
    against US"

    "Ambitious plans to bolster the
    country's nuclear arsenal — as well as
    its conventional military hardware —
    were well underway.

    They include new missile systems,
    modernised nuclear bombers and
    submarines. "We have plans that are not
    only great, but grandiose," he boasted."

    ReplyDelete
  50. If the Lab Directors refused to certify a weapon system, and the President then refused to test, it would be interesting to see how long it would take for those (classified) facts to become public. I suspect the majority of the public would support the President.

    ReplyDelete
  51. If the Lab Directors refused to certify a weapon system, and the President then refused to test,
    ==================

    As I recall, that was the whole point of
    "Safeguard F" - the President CAN NOT
    refuse to test.

    Here's a statement by US Senator Levin,
    Democrat of Michigan who was then the
    chairman of the Armed Services Committee:

    http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroom/
    release.cfm?id=210052

    "That is because if they can't certify
    the safety and reliability of our
    nuclear stockpile in some future year
    they have the assurance in Safeguard F,
    by which we can withdraw from the
    treaty if we need to conduct a nuclear
    test. We have incorporated that
    safeguard and, indeed, strengthened it
    in the amendment to this resolution,
    that we will withdraw from this treaty
    and begin nuclear testing again if
    necessary. We do not want our stockpile
    to be unsafe or unreliable. Nobody does
    -- none of us."

    Senator Levin refers to the fact that
    the provisions of "Safeguard F" were
    incorporated as part of a Congressional
    Resolution above.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I suspect the majority of the public would support the President.
    =============

    It's a matter of current LAW - that the
    nuclear weapons have to be certified.

    ReplyDelete
  53. 6:12 and 6:14 pm: Actually not true. Safeguard F has nothing to do with nuclear testing. It only states that under a CTBT (not ratified by the US) the President must "be prepared to withdraw" from the treaty if testing is seen to be needed, not that the US must actually withdraw - however a moot point since CTBT is not in effect.

    Actually, since October 1992 there has been a law maintaining a nuclear test moratorium in the US - so the LAW says the US will NOT test. So, there may be a law (please provide a citation) that says the weapons must be certified, there is no law saying they must be tested, in fact the opposite.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Actually, since October 1992 there has been a law maintaining a nuclear test moratorium in the US - so the LAW says the US will NOT test.
    ================

    WRONG!! You just flat out don't know what
    you are talking about!! In late 1992,
    Congess imposed an amendment to the
    Defense Authorization that imposed a
    6-month moratorium on testing. That
    carried into the Clinton Administration
    when that law expired. The Clinton
    Administration CHOSE not to test, as
    did the current President.

    However, in 2003, Congress enacted
    the Defense Authorization Act of 2003
    which REQUIRES the certification -
    actually called "asssessment" by DOE.

    You can read about the process in this
    letter from the GAO - Government
    Accountability Office to Rep. Ellen
    Tausher:

    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07243r.pdf

    Reiterating - you are WRONG that there
    is a law that prevents the USA from
    testing - in fact as the above GAO
    letter states the Lab Directors are
    required to certify that they can be
    ready to test if needed.

    Get your FACTS straight before you post
    your uninformed blather here!!

    ReplyDelete
  55. Actually, since October 1992 there has been a law maintaining a nuclear test moratorium in the US - so the LAW says the US will NOT test.
    ================

    Here is a section on the law you MISQUOTE;
    the Hartfield-Exon-Mitchell amendment to
    the 1993 Energy and Water Appropriation:

    http://fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/
    pu50yd.html

    The Hatfield-Exon-Mitchell Amendment to
    the FY 1993 Energy and Water
    Appropriation Bill (Public Law 102-377)
    mandated a 10 month moratorium on U.S.
    nuclear testing and restricted the
    purposes and numbers of any tests to be
    conducted before a Comprehensive Test
    Ban Treaty (CTBT) is concluded. The
    Hatfield Amendment mandated that only
    five tests could be conducted per year, with a maximum over a four year period
    being 15 tests. Further, it stipulated
    that these tests could only be conducted
    for the purposes of ensuring the safety
    of warheads which were installed with
    modern safety features, or to test the
    reliability of U.S. nuclear weapons."

    President Clinton has extended this
    moratorium on three occasions, most
    recently in January of 1995 when he
    extended the moratorium until a CTBT
    enters into force (on the assumption
    that a CTBT is concluded by September
    30, 1996).

    The above envisioned that a CTBT would
    be entered into by the USA; and then
    President Clinton did sign the CTBT
    Treaty; but when he presented it to
    the US Senate for ratification, the
    Senate refused.

    Hence, the CTBT is not binding on the
    USA; nor ANY country because it requires
    the USA's signature along with 40+ other
    nations. Hence the CTBT is "not yet in
    force". See the United Nations Treaty
    Status page for the CTBT at:

    http://disarmament.un.org/
    TreatyStatus.nsf/
    44e6eeabc9436b78852568770078d9c0/
    0655d51a30692632852568770079dda2?
    OpenDocument

    "Opened for signature at New York:
    24 September 1996

    Not yet in force"

    There is NO prohibition against the
    USA conducting a nuclear test. MIT's
    Prof. Gusterson is correct - the Labs
    could put an end to the moratorium
    under the right conditions.

    ReplyDelete
  56. 8:21 am said:

    "There is NO prohibition against the USA conducting a nuclear test. MIT's Prof. Gusterson is correct - the Labs could put an end to the moratorium under the right conditions."

    I think the argument being made was that there is no legal *requirement* to test. Lacking such a requirment, the decision to test or not would require significant political will either way on the part of the President. So it appears the scenario posed by 2/18 5:51 pm is possible. Likely? Who knows.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Here is a section on the law you MISQUOTE;
    the Hartfield-Exon-Mitchell amendment to
    the 1993 Energy and Water Appropriation:
    ----------------------------

    Yes - the anti-nukes sure do have
    a penchant for misquoting and
    misrepresenting the tenets of
    laws, treaties, and court
    decisions.

    In case there are any more
    illiterati out there:

    There is no current US law
    that bans nuclear tests.

    The 1994 Spratt-Furse "PLYWD"
    prohibition against low-yield
    nuclear weapons was repealed.
    in 2003.

    The CTBT is not in force; so
    there is no UN treaty prohibiting
    tests by the USA or any other
    country.

    The World Court did not make
    the possession of nuclear
    weapons illegal in its
    1996 decision.

    These idiots have to learn
    to read what these documents
    actually say; not what they
    want them to say.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I think the argument being made was that there is no legal *requirement* to test. Lacking such a requirment,
    =================

    You need to read the Atomic Energy Act
    of 1954 and the Defense Authorization
    Act of 2003!!

    ReplyDelete
  59. 11:18 am: "You need to read the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 and the Defense Authorization Act of 2003!!"

    I have - neither requires testing, only that 1) the President provide an annual report on whether he believes testing is required, along with any alternatives to testing, and 2) the President maintain test readiness. Of course, if you are not referring to Div. C; Title XXXI; Subtitles A&B of the NDAA for 2003, or to para 7274p of the AEA, please post your references.

    ReplyDelete
  60. "Why would one need to actually witness
    a nuclear detonation in order to have
    an understanding of what it is?"


    Probably wouldn't be waisting time with simplistic "727" and "cops and robbers" analogies for one thing. When the destructive force of a nuclear weapon is compared to a bullet I begin to question whether or not any of you truly understand what it is you are talking about.

    At least those in government understand what it is they are dealing with. If they didn't, based on what I have read here, we would be developing new weapons, testing and certainly using them. It's easy understand why the framers of the constitution put control of the military in the hands of civilians.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Probably wouldn't be waisting time with simplistic "727" and "cops and robbers" analogies for one thing. When the destructive force of a nuclear weapon is compared to a bullet I begin to question whether or not any of you truly understand what it is you are talking about.
    =================

    Some people just don't have the mental
    capacity to understand ANALOGIES!!!

    The reason for using the 727 as an
    analogy is that the real issues can't
    be discussed due to the fact that they
    are classified.

    One can't say that the "X" parts of a
    nuclear weapon are turning to "green
    cheese" and that the safety and/or
    reliability of a nuclear weapon is in
    question.

    Therefore, one uses the 727 as an
    analogy. One says, "See, these are
    the types of things that can go wrong
    with a 727 sitting in Arizona for 20
    years - and that a "test" of the
    aircraft - namely that it actually flew
    25 years ago is pretty meaningless.

    Analogously, tests of virgin nuclear
    weapons done decades ago are becoming
    more and more meaningless as age-related
    changes to the weapons turn them into
    objects that were never tested in their
    present condition.

    There's nothing wrong with analogizing
    nuclear weapons to bullets either.

    Your child's toy boat floats in the
    bathtub because of Archimedes Principle.
    An aircraft carrier also floats because
    of Archimedes Principle.

    Sure an aircraft carrier is larger than
    a toy boat by a factor that probably
    exceeds the factor by which the energy
    of a nuclear weapon exceeds the energy
    of a bullet.

    However, the physical law that keeps
    both afloat is EXACTLY the same.

    I really have to question the intellect
    of anyone that says the analogy is not
    apt just because of a differential in
    magnitude.

    ReplyDelete
  62. 7:51 am:

    "I really have to question the intellect of anyone that says the analogy is not apt just because of a differential in magnitude."

    If you think "magnitude" is the only difference, then YOU are the one whose intellect is questionable. To paraphrase your argument, the physical laws that apply to bullets and to nuclear weapons are NOT "exactly the same"!
    The physical forces and therefore the laws that govern them are different. BTW, bullets don't explode.

    ReplyDelete
  63. f you think "magnitude" is the only difference, then YOU are the one whose intellect is questionable. To paraphrase your argument, the physical laws that apply to bullets and to nuclear weapons are NOT "exactly the same"!
    The physical forces and therefore the laws that govern them are different. BTW, bullets don't explode.
    =====================

    I didn't say that the magnitude was the
    only difference. I said that anyone who
    EXCLUDES the analogy on magnitude ALONE
    is of questionable intellect.

    I know bullets don't explode - but that
    is immaterial to the analogy. A cop
    may need to kill a felon - a bullet
    does that job. A nation may have to
    "kill" [ note quotes ] an adversary
    nation - and that's what the nuclear
    weapon does.

    How the weapon does its killing is
    really immaterial to the analogy.

    All that counts is that they both
    "kill" the respective adversary.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Give it up Mr. "=============="

    No one in America gives a sh*t about US nuclear weapons anymore. Not Congress, not the public and not even our local political delegation. Even the DOD is lukewarm to them.

    They'll be more than happy to leave the old things up on the shelf with an occasional dusting to keep them clean. Other than that, they just don't want to spend any more money on them. Like it or not, that's the current reality we face.

    ReplyDelete

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