Feb 29, 2008

Regarding the "Forgotten Two":

In the comments on the LANL Worker not to blame for 2004 breach post, questions have come up about two other employees who were also fired. Here is the latest:
Someone (7:58) posted earlier "Well, maybe because these were "security" people and therefore beneath contempt, let alone worthy of sympathy??"

They weren't exactly "security people", although at least one performed a security function. They were low-to-mid level TECs, I believe. But John was also a technician (albeit a TEC 7), and Todd was a non-degreed staff member, so I think there's little truth to the claim that those two (the not-John-or-Todd two) were forgotten or ignored because they were TECs or "security people" rather than "scientists".

I've always found it curious that they are forgotten. As an example, an earlier poster on this thread states "Nobody got disciplined except Horne and Kauppila.", and that simply isn't true. But that is what the story has become.

I don't recall Todd mentioning the "forgotten two" in his account of what happened; to my knowledge John has never mentioned them on this blog. Certainly their names rarely (if ever) came up on the revered original blog.

For the record, at least 10 people got several weeks, if not months, administrative leave; three people were terminated (Todd plus two more), and at least one person got unpaid leave.

So, again, Todd, John, Doug Roberts, the bloggers....it seems that no one ever talks (or in Todd's case, talked) about the other two. Certainly no one has championed their cause.

Again, why? Did they somehow deserve what happened to them, while John and Todd did not?

I don't have the answer, but I believe that the question is worth asking.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

You play with venomous snakes and you don't think you deserve to get bit? Or is the issue that you can identify with these two? But would you give a damn if these were women or hispanics being victimized for complaining about inequity? Not likely. That's why it's hard for some to care much now. So a couple of white guys were victimized. Quess what...this is everyday life for minorities and most women all across the country! Welcome to the club.

Anonymous said...

2/29/08 6:33 PM wrote
"Quess what...this is everyday life for minorities and most women all across the country! Welcome to the club."

"Quess" what: It is not everyday life to be fired for an event that never happened, or specifically a flaw in a management procedure, and to receive neither compensation nor an apology. Your stupid comment about minorities and women is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Move your soapbox elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

6:33 PM - women were victimized and then fired during this time as well by now-high-ranking Lab management. Not just white men.

Anonymous said...

"It is not everyday life to be fired for an event that never happened, or specifically a flaw in a management procedure, and to receive neither compensation nor an apology. Your stupid comment about minorities and women is irrelevant to the subject at hand."

Actually it is relevent when you consider that a female post-doc and a mail post-doc were involved in the acid inhalation incident in C-division in 2005 and only female got fired...

Anonymous said...

2/29/08 6:33 PM

Pull your head from your rectum and watch the road ahead.

The best I can call you now is an ignorant asshole.

Anonymous said...

2/29/08 6:33 PM

It is only racism if it is against the lazy hispanic culture of NNM? If I look across the rest of the social structure at LANL it is ripe with diversity, with representation from many different countries across the globe.None of them complain about racism or being a cry baby because they are a minority. They are all in good positions. I guess the difference is they worked hard to get where they are, and did not rely on the entitlement factor that is so common in NNM.


Earn your keep, do not expect that you deserve it - the same comment to any race from any country

(BTW - I am also a minority and your attitude makes me embarassed to be so)

Anonymous said...

2/29/08 7:16 PM

6:33 is just plain stupid, obviously, and not familiar with the incident.

Anonymous said...

Glad to see the blog maintaining it's historic high level of discourse...

Anonymous said...

Isn't it possible that the two other people who were fired just wanted to get on with their lives? I don't even know their names, although lord knows they could have sought public sympathy on this blog.

Anonymous said...

"The best I can call you now is an ignorant asshole. (Said: 2/29/08 8:02 PM)

You don't get it do you 8:02PM? Perhaps you don't want to get it. I agree with those that say we are "selective" in our outrage. I think what 6:33PM is trying to say is that when you're doing the victimizing it doesn't seem quite so bad. When you're the one being victimized (or can identify with the one being victimized), well then that's different. In this case it was basically the Anglo community at Los Alamos that was victimized, hence the outrage being expressed over and over and over again on this blog. Had it been a minority, you can bet the farm there wouldn't be a fraction of the outrage being expressed, if any. Case in point...how about Wen Ho Lee? Or how about the discriminatory layoff of the late 90s? How about the more recent pay disparity case won by women? Still don't get it 8:02PM? Probably never will.

Anonymous said...

(BTW - I am also a minority and your attitude makes me embarassed to be so)--2/29/08 8:06 PM

Minority? From where? India? China? You're just another arrogant prick who thinks he shits gold instead of turds. No doubt you perceive yourself as gifted and deserving, while the "lazy" locals just want a free ride. Like so many before you, you probably just got off bus and think way too much of yourself. One way to prove it is by tearing down everything in the vicinity you know absolutely nothing about. Denegrading the so-called locals is an age-old ploy used to establish superiority in one's own mind. The Spanish did it to the Native Americans. The Anglo did it to the Spanish. Now you. This is why the Lab is in the mess it's in today. If we can't respect one another, can we respect those we perceive as being less deserving or smart? Of course not. That's why we view Congress as stupid, the Santa Fe crowd as naive, and locals are just plain lazy. Our brilliance is just so misunderstood, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

2/29/08 6:33 PM said "It is only racism if it is against the lazy hispanic culture of NNM?"

So presumably the dozens of Hispanic homesteaders who, in 1943, had their lands stolen from them and livelihoods destroyed to establish what today is your own personal gravy train in Los Alamos, all that was just fine and dandy with you? You and those of your kind (whatever vile species of human being you may be) are a pathetic bunch. No wonder that place is so screwed up.

Anonymous said...

8:13, 8:40 and 9:41

I bet these are all from the same bitter loser Mechels. It is that same "I hate the people at LANL" crap he always uses. Mechels by the way could really care less about minority issues or the locals. He does not speak for the local community he is just trying to cause trouble.

If you want to know what the local community really think about Los Almaos just ask them. They are extremely positive about as it has
provided numerous jobs, summer opportunties, and a boost to the local economy. These are basic economics facts. I find it particuarly disgusting that someone like Mechels pretends to speak for
the local community. This guy has no shame.

Anonymous said...

Good point about taking land away from those who were already here. Wasn't that also what the Nazi's did to the Jews in Germany--take their land (and labor) without fair compensation? None of us are without sin I suppose.

Anonymous said...

9:41 am :"dozens of Hispanic homesteaders who, in 1943, had their lands stolen from them and livelihoods destroyed to establish what today is your own personal gravy train in Los Alamos"

Hey, there's a reason for the saying "war is hell" and these folks didn't even have to get shot at. How many other US citizens had their lives disrupted by WWII? How about the thousands of Japanese-Americans interned? Sorry, but I think a small number of homesteaders giving up their land for the war effort is somewhat outweighed by the millions of lives saved by avoiding the invasion of Japan, due to the results obtained here.

I know, everything the government does is wrong, and next year when the Democrats are in control, everything the government does will be right.

Anonymous said...

The hispanic homesteaders (and their heirs) had a legitimate complaint of not being treated fairly. But they have been compensated, so we can stop being outraged by that now.

Anonymous said...

Here we go again....when we get tired of Nanos, UC, and LANS bashing we turn on each other. As a fellow employee I am ashamed for you. It appears to me that there is more wrong at LANL than just bad management....Perhaps it is time to look at ourselves.

Anonymous said...

The tone was set for this bashing by the first post (6:33 PM). That is what off topic trolling tends to do.

The topic of this thread is the Forgotten Two. Does anyone have anything constructive to say about that?

Anonymous said...

I just looked at myself 6:08. Smart and handsome.

If only my colleagues were as attractive...sigh.

ps - I smelled myself as well, and all seems to be in order. My colleagues could use some help, though.

Anonymous said...

9:04 pm

You smell alright, you smell like a troll. Get lost.

Anonymous said...

8:24 pm: "The topic of this thread is the Forgotten Two. Does anyone have anything constructive to say about that?"

Well, there were many more than "two" who paid the price for this non-event. Look among the Security employees who were either fired or lost promotions or positions. Look among the clerical people who lost their seniority. Look among all those whose clearance files were forever tainted by the over reactions of Lab management and the lackeys they tapped to do their dirty work. Many Security people were unfairly tainted by their own colleagues, and some very good people just quit out of disgust with the unfairness. Just another chapter in the downfall of LANL, led by Nanos the Destroyer. Guess he thinks he got away with it.

Anonymous said...

Dearest 12:12,

It's true. I am Chris Mechel. But so is everyone else.

Anonymous said...

Or they profited from the war.

Depends on your point of view.

Many other people lost to the war, but they did not profit. They did not cry either.

Anonymous said...

Gee, I've been reading your blog and I wondered if this was the place to bring up Jaret McDonald. He's the guy that couldn't find anyone at LANL that cared about Bussolini's extortion and finally went to Congress?
Is he regarded as a hero or LANL embarrassment?

Anonymous said...

LANL is a sick, sick place. The sense of entitlement and greed and outright hatred by many Anglos and Hispanics who work at the place and who can't seem to let go of their intense grudges is helping to destroy the place.

The degeneration of discussions in this post is all you need as further evidence. If you work at LANL you've probably heard all of this before in water cooler discussions.

Put a fork in it. LANL is done.

It's being torn apart by the very workers who work there and by a "for-profit" management gang that clearly hasn't got a clue how to effectively run the place.

Anonymous said...

> If you work at LANL you've probably
> heard all of this before in water
> cooler discussions.

At least we still have water coolers.
They could've gone the same way as the office trash emptying service.

Anonymous said...

Never heard of Jaret McDonald, if you must know, although I certainly remember the Pete Bussolini debacle.

However, KSL (his employer) is a major LANL embarrassment.

And the fallout of the Bussolini caper is that we probably waste at least an extra $100M per year anymore (beteen p-card audits, i-procurement, DPR training, and so on) on foolproof systems to make sure that nobody can carry off $100K worth of embezzlements.

Anonymous said...

Dear 3:12,

Jaret, the contractor, was unable to get any LANL staff or management to pay attention to Bussolini's thievery. (http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2003/02/57820)
He testified to that effect to Congress. This occurrance was quickly followed by the Walp-Doran affair.
These three men, I believe, should be recognized as LANL heroes.

Anonymous said...

Just think 3:12, when it stops 1000 people annually from embezzling 100K each, it will be worth it.

Anonymous said...

So back to the original question - who are the two forgoten ones?

Anonymous said...

Dear 3:12,

Jaret, the contractor, was unable to get any LANL staff or management to pay attention to Bussolini's thievery. (http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2003/02/57820)
He testified to that effect to Congress. This occurrance was quickly followed by the Walp-Doran affair.
These three men, I believe, should be recognized as LANL heroes.

3/2/08 3:52 PM


Excuse me, but hero's is a strong word.

1) Walp and Doran were imcompetent and easily swayed by management. Oh yes, and they profited also.

2) Jaret did what any employee should of done. How many others knew about the problems and did nothing? Too many to count, and yet they are some of the highest educated in the country. Wimps also

Anonymous said...

8:44 pm: "Walp and Doran were imcompetent..."

Walp was a very experienced law enforcement officer. At the time he hired on at LANL he was Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police, one of the most respected state police agencies in the nation. Totally out of his element at LANL, yes. Incompetent, no.

Anonymous said...

Totally out of his element at LANL, yes. Incompetent, no.

3/2/08 9:14 PM

Ok. Totally out of his element. So out of his element he was paralyzed to take any action?

Ok, he was a commissioner with the Pennslyvania State Police, one of the most respected state police organizations in the US. For how long? Why did he leave? Did he leave because he was also in over his head, or "out of his element', or were there other circumstances?

He was part of a team perfomring an "F" quality level job, and then sued whenthat fact became public.

Anonymous said...

As reported by the Albuquerque Journal, Pete Bussolini embezzled $328,000.

www.abqjournal.com/news/state/181334nm05-31-04.htm

Jaret McDonald did his job, but how many overcharges did he see KSL get away with without calling the FBI? Seriously, the Bussolini theft was bad enough, but it is a tiny fraction of KSL's waste, fraud, and abuse.

Anonymous said...

And a third time: Who are the two forgotten ones?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
And a third time: Who are the two forgotten ones?

3/3/08 8:08 AM


Forgotten.

Anonymous said...

The forgotten two:

Jenny Vigil
Francis Vigil

Anonymous said...

"Seriously, the Bussolini theft was bad enough, but it is a tiny fraction of KSL's waste, fraud, and abuse."


Once the scale of the fraud and abuse becomes large enough, it's no longer consider fraud and abuse. It's consider a savy means to making a sweet profit!

Just ask the top guys running LANS. They know all the neat tricks in this regard.

Why do you think they still keep KSL on the LANL payroll and allow them to bleed this place dry? Follow the money and you'll have the answers to that question.

Anonymous said...

Give it another year or two and we'll probably be right back at 'shutdown stage' again over some crazy incident. Congress and the media haven't given up on their desires to beat this place down.

Next time, though, Congressman Stupak won't be just a small-time committee member. He'll be the lead player on a key committee and a member of the party that controls both the House and the Senate, plus the White House. His party also contains a state delegation that appears to care little about the Federal labs in their state.

This makes me think that LANL's days are probably numbered.

Anonymous said...

So what happened to the Vigils? Are they still in town?

Anonymous said...

3/3 11:56 pm: "Why do you think they still keep KSL on the LANL payroll and allow them to bleed this place dry?"

About a year ago, there were rumors that Anastasio was meeting with top KSL managers and LANS was preparing to cut KSL loose over the job cost inflation, abuses of purchasing, padded overtime, etc. Then, nothing happened. Either KSL cleaned up its act to some degree, or some other "acommodation" was reached. Anybody know when KSL's contract is up for renewal?

Anonymous said...

"Either KSL cleaned up its act to some degree.."

Don't make me laugh. During this fall when almost all maintenance work was halted by LANS, KSL found a way to juice the system by doing relentless fire alarm testing using expensive overtime hours.

They're like whack-a-mole. Close down one KSL gambit and they'll quickly find another to exploit.